Resource USUM NU Viability Rankings (Old)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Jrsmash9

jrsmash that timer

C --> C+
Skuntank seems underwhelming at first, however its actually a good trapper on stall. It can switch into any decidueye set unlike sneasle and absol and then proceed to trap it. Skuntank also has aftermath which helps the stall matchup vs medicham, dhelmise, and braviary as they will now take pursuit + aftermath damage.

Skuntank (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Aftermath
EVs: 128 Atk / 156 Def / 224 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pursuit
- Throat Chop
- Poison Jab
- Sucker Punch

This is the set that I use which allows it too outspeed base 80s and survive a +2 z lowsweep from decidueye with rocks.

+2 252 Atk Decidueye All-Out Pummeling (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Skuntank: 257-303 (74 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
128 Atk Choice Band Skuntank Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Decidueye: 176-210 (59.2 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

C- --> C

Artiucno is another mon that is viable only on stall. It prevents piloswine, palossand, and druddigion from rocking while also acting as a vanilluxe counter. It has healbell as well which allows audino to run knockoff and toxic which is really nice. The biggest problem with artiucno is the 4x stealth rock weakness however in order to alleviate it you basically need to run xatu. Pressure stalling is also very helpful against bulkier teams and the stall v stall matchup.


B --> A
Silvally-Steel seems really low on the rankings atm and its one of the best defoggers on balance. It can provide momentum with parting shot and check pokemon like diancie, decidueye, klinklang and vanilluxe. Its a really nice glue mon and is best with teammates like passimian who can form pivot cores with it.
 

Rabia

is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
GP & NU Leader

B --> A
Silvally-Steel seems really low on the rankings atm and its one of the best defoggers on balance. It can provide momentum with parting shot and check pokemon like diancie, decidueye, klinklang and vanilluxe. Its a really nice glue mon and is best with teammates like passimian who can form pivot cores with it.
A rise to A for Silvally-Steel is not warranted by any means. It's been nominated for a rise for like, three voting slates in a row? And that was just to B+. While I am definitely an advocate for a rise to B+ still, this much of a rise to me seems very unjust. With Braviary's current rise Silvally-Steel now has to be much more wary of clicking Defog or Parting Shot since it risks giving a Defiant boost over. I will not refute Silvally-Steel being a great pick on balance because of what it does check, but the meta has been trending against it for a good couple months now (Sceptile gaining more prominence and beating Silvally-Steel, new drops can muscle by it pretty handily, and Braviary).

other noms I'm fine with; I haven't played with stall so I won't pretend to know the value of Skuntank and Articuno all too much, but from what you've said they seem like good nominations
 

Clawitzer C- => higher (honestly better and a larger niche than everything in the C ranks)

I used to see this as the ultimate ladder noob mon but after Toxicroak and Venusaur left the tier, there's a lack of mons that can effectively punish/switch-in to this especially with Mega-Audino and Type:Null dwindling in usage. This hits stupid hard on pretty much all the mons bar like Vaporeon (in which case operates like the Ash-Gren v Toxapex matchup aka one flinch w/ d-pulse = gg). This also has moderate bulk making things like Aerodactyl/Sneasel pursuit much less threatening to it than other wallbreakers like Heliolisk/Sceptile is more annoyed by while also allowing it to just straight switch into something like Slowbro/Steelix and start firing moves.

Clawitzer @ Choice Specs
Ability: Mega Launcher
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Water Pulse
- Aura Sphere
- Dark Pulse
- U-turn

Effectively eats every balance whole and Ice beam really isn't needed when convienently the newest added grasses to the tier are weak to d-pulse anyway. Aura Sphere is very underrated in pressuring the hell out of Cryogonal/Silvally-Steel/Miltank and catching Audino that hasn't mega'd yet.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Clawitzer Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 168+ SpD Cryogonal: 252-298 (69.2 - 81.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
This is the bulkiest most Cryogonal are willing to go and it still gets shredded by Clawitzer. Guaranteed KO's without near max
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Clawitzer Aura Sphere vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 322-380 (78.7 - 92.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Once they're out of Regenerator, you can start fishing with Water Pulse confuses which they are forced to Wish

252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Clawitzer Water Pulse vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 165-195 (38.4 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Clawitzer Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Vileplume: 221-261 (62.4 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Ice beam need not apply

252+ SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Clawitzer Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Vaporeon: 210-248 (45.3 - 53.5%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Forces protect and with just a little bit of chip puts it in range of 2HKO anyway
 

Finchinator

-OUTL
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending OU Circuit Championis a Two-Time Former Old Generation Tournament Circuit Champion
OU Leader
Adding onto the above post on Clawitzer, it also has the uncommon, but sneaky good Substitute, Toxic, Water Pulse, and Ice Beam/Dark Pulse variant that Kushalos came up with during NUPL. While I am unsure as to if it saw any official or relevant tournament usage, I can attest to how effective it is on a firsthand, personal level. This set stops a lot of progress and momentum from balance and bulky offense builds, which tend to be the norm atm I reckon, and it chips away at problematic Pokemon that others appreciate being crippled and/or weakened. If put on the right team, this set can set up very nicely for a number of things and suck up all momentum for a few turns. Overall, Specs is probably more consistent, but I think Clawitzer is a solid Pokemon in the metagame no matter which set. The main issue is that you want to slap on Slowbro or other things and it doesn’t get a lot of love, so it’s hard to argue much more than C+ or B-, but I can see it moving there at least.
 

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
B+ to A-

This Pokemon hits like an absolute monster. While Decidueye is usually the better overall breaker due to SD, Sinister Arrow Raid, and better speed, Decidueye is rather inept at weakening its own checks. Dhelmise, on the other hand, has no trouble doing so, since Choice Band Power Whip does crazy stuff like OHKO defensive Slowbro, 2HKO Steelix with CB Whip after SR damage, and OHKO offensive Fire-types not named Incineroar after SR. Even unboosted Power Whip claims to OHKO AV Slowbro, which is frankly nuts for a physical attack to do so. This mon can exploit the common bulky Water + Steelix cores handily and, unlike Decidueye, immediately threaten them with immense damage, which means it can also attempt to smack any other bulky Pokemon that accompany those cores, like Incineroar and Golbat, for substantial damage.

Dhelmise's coverage isn't just "slightly better" than Decidueye's as stated earlier; it actually does pretty much everything Dhelmise wants to do in terms of immediate attacking. Power Whip and Anchor Shot function as 'STABs' that are extremely powerful, thus making them easier to spam than one might realize (especially with Anchor Shot's double-switch denial), while Earthquake catches Incineroar, Garbodor, and Steel-types all at once. Knock Off is the pure icing on the cake, crippling Figy Berry Incineroar and Eviolite users like Golbat and Ferroseed to make them easier for Dhelmise to break later on.

Dhelmise even has a niche as a spinner, and while I don't consider it particularly effective since it's so easy to revenge kill before it can pull off the Spin, Dhelmise at least has a favorable matchup against the majority of Stealth Rockers in the tier, with Miracle Seed Power Whip being able to demolish Piloswine and Palossand in one go as well as 3HKO Steelix, while access to Synthesis helps to give it a bit of sustain to do its job. In any case, this mon should be nommed for a rise for its sheer holepunching qualities.
 
Aerodactyl B- -> B+
Honestly this guy has been amazing for me

Aerodactyl @ Rockium Z
Ability: Pressure / Unnerve (just for figy incineroar if it gets really popular)
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Defog / Tailwind / Some attacking move like Earthquake or Pursuit
- Taunt
- Stone Edge

Since most people don't know him well nobody expects taunt (at least rn) so he's really good as a lead
I like to go full defense to avoid getting killed by Lix, Piloswine and Rhydon (although at least for now nobody ever attacked him)
It also counters accelgor but he's not that relevant honestly
He is also quite good against Incineroar, since he can easily 0hko him with the Z move
IMO he's Golbat but better, and btw Golbat is way too low
 
Aerodactyl B- -> B+
Honestly this guy has been amazing for me

Aerodactyl @ Rockium Z
Ability: Pressure / Unnerve (just for figy incineroar if it gets really popular)
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Defog / Tailwind / Some attacking move like Earthquake or Pursuit
- Taunt
- Stone Edge

Since most people don't know him well nobody expects taunt (at least rn) so he's really good as a lead
I like to go full defense to avoid getting killed by Lix, Piloswine and Rhydon (although at least for now nobody ever attacked him)
It also counters accelgor but he's not that relevant honestly
He is also quite good against Incineroar, since he can easily 0hko him with the Z move
IMO he's Golbat but better, and btw Golbat is way too low
Yeah, but after you taunt you take a heavy slam, or an icicle crash, or a stone edge, on and on. Very poor match up vs rockers, and the defensive spread you posted doesn't let it get any better than 2hko'd, while doing measly damage back. Why would you run suicide lead Aerodactyl when Lycanroc has endeavor +accelerock, and even then it's only C-...
 
Yeah, but after you taunt you take a heavy slam, or an icicle crash, or a stone edge, on and on. Very poor match up vs rockers, and the defensive spread you posted doesn't let it get any better than 2hko'd, while doing measly damage back. Why would you run suicide lead Aerodactyl when Lycanroc has endeavor +accelerock, and even then it's only C-...
He's not like lycanroc, you taunt and either switch out if they have incineroar or just suicide him if not, the attack is just to handle incineroar and other occasional mons, it's not an offensive set, even if i'm running rockium z there are no other items i could think of (figy still gets 2hkod) and i have no other z mon in my team
 

Jisoo

two slow dancers last ones out
is a Pre-Contributoris a defending SPL Champion
Respectfully I don't think that SR Aero is the best set right now! I have been getting a lot more value out of the LO 3 attacks set and the Pressure SubRoost set. Switch ins to the Life Orb set are somewhat limited to mons like Slowbro and Palossand as EQ does a hefty chunk to mons like Diancie and Steelix. The SubRoost set is also insane right now because it does a good job at checking incineroar / stalling PP out of Slowbro and other mons that it outspeeds. I think SR is generally an inferior set as it has a poor matchup against all the rockers (already mentioned). I am supportive of a rise to B / maybe B+ (stretch) but I feel like B- is undervaluing it a bit.

Another thing that I have noticed is outperforming the rank that it's at is Comfey! I propose a rise to A- for this mon. The two sets I have toyed around with a lot lately are Specs and CM. Most of its utility as many of you already know comes from Triage which is just a ridiculously strong ability. Triage makes it one of the best revenge killers in the game since you outspeed/out prioritize everything so you aren't ever losing to mons like Scrafty or Malamar no matter how many boosts they get. It has really strong natural bulk which makes it a strong check to mons like Heliolisk since Lisk doesn't do that much damage to it and you can Draining Kiss a crazy amount of HP back. Also, if you opt for HP Fire you can hit stuff like Steelix, Plume, Silv-Steel and Klinklang for SE damage which makes it easier to spam DK / Giga Drain later in the game. My only concern is that I have seen a lot more Golbats and Garbodors lately which are really hard counters to Comfey.

Also supporting Dhelmise to A- and Clawitzer rise, as well as a Guzzlord rise of some sort (this mon is crazy good and so splashable atm)
Thank you for taking the time to read, I wrote this at 8:30 after not sleeping at all so please forgive careless errors.
 
Last edited:
Hey I know Kingler as been rejected but please could you consider it again? It's really good.

  • Like the direct power difference is huge it's crazy, 130 attack with a 110 BP move (sheer force) as opposed to Samurott's 100 attack / 85 bp move. Factor this into a match Kingler can OHKO a defensive Diancie, while Samurott literally does 50% so it could really set up SR or attack if it really wanted to. Same thing with Steelix, Samurott only 3HKO's, Kingler also 2HKO's Quagsire and there are many other examples which Samurott dislikes because it's not strong enough without boosting.
  • Count Riario did a great job showing what Kingler can do but I'd also like to mention Kingler can easily run Double Dance (Agility) since water / bug has great coverage and it makes up for the lack of Aqua Jet, this lets you beat faster mons like Sceptile and Heliolisk, something Samurott will never do and then a small benefit of that extra 5 speed in a busy speed tier.
Sorry I don't have so much to add but I strongly believe it should be ranked
 

Rabia

is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
GP & NU Leader
Hey I know Kingler as been rejected but please could you consider it again? It's really good.

  • Like the direct power difference is huge it's crazy, 130 attack with a 110 BP move (sheer force) as opposed to Samurott's 100 attack / 85 bp move. Factor this into a match Kingler can OHKO a defensive Diancie, while Samurott literally does 50% so it could really set up SR or attack if it really wanted to. Same thing with Steelix, Samurott only 3HKO's, Kingler also 2HKO's Quagsire and there are many other examples which Samurott dislikes because it's not strong enough without boosting.
  • Count Riario did a great job showing what Kingler can do but I'd also like to mention Kingler can easily run Double Dance (Agility) since water / bug has great coverage and it makes up for the lack of Aqua Jet, this lets you beat faster mons like Sceptile and Heliolisk, something Samurott will never do and then a small benefit of that extra 5 speed in a busy speed tier.
Sorry I don't have so much to add but I strongly believe it should be ranked
Expanding on this: while Kingler lacks the versatility that comes with Samurott, it isn't particularly relevant nor detrimental enough to the point Samurott strictly outclasses Kingler. The straight up wallbreaking that comes with Kingler makes up for it being one-dimensional and Kingler breaks through every common balance core really easily given the proper coverage moves. You can argue Kingler is strapped for moveslots, but at the end of the day you're basically set with Liquidation / X-Scissor / filler / Swords Dance. I think C- at the very least is warranted if we're keeping extremely niche Pokemon like Shuckle and Lycanroc there.
 

UR --> C+

Tangelo was supposed to use it this week for NU Open, but he ended up losing before he could bring it out in game 3. Big noob.

So Pinsir is a mon designed to beat this metas balance cores. Not fearing Passimian revenging killing it which is a staple of balance right now, its able to set up and break common staples such as Rhydon, Steelix, Diancie, Golbat, Vileplume, and Slowbro which means you're able to just 6-0 most defensively based teams, and even just a lot of balance teams given the set up of most balance teams are just Passimian + 5 mons below base 85 speed.


Thanks to its two amazing abilities in Mold Breaker and Moxie, it allows you to really pick and chose what role you want Pinsir to play.

With Mold Breaker you're able to ignore unaware and basically 6-0 stall, as well as throw out Tectonic Rage for free and not worry about things like Rotom bugging you.

Moxie on the other hand lets you pick apart balance easier as you can use its base 125 attack to grab a quick kill, get +1 atk, and use that boost to break things that would otherwise take a hit such as defensive Diancie or Golbat after rocks damage and snowball the boosts even harder.


Base 85 speed is actually super relevant in the tier right now as you're faster then threats such as Braviary, Medicham, Vanilluxe, and Incineroar which leaves only things like Rotom or Helio to revenge kill it.
Thanks to its sheer bulk you're able to shrug off hits from Passimian, Sceptile, and Sneasel who might try and use their higher speed tier to revenge kill you, which only betters your match up against a lot of these more common balance cores.


Here's two replay examples of it in action where you can see just how good it is at picking apart teams that use the Passimian + slow build types:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-785699441 Here I actually misplayed, I should have Z-EQ'd the Steelix and not risk the Heavy Slam. Getting Pinsir to +1 still allowed me to break his team at much less risk.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-785620421 Sadly the match ended when I got the SD, which means I couldn't break apart his team with it. But after seeing the above replay you can probably picture how it would have went down.
I FORGOT TO GET PERMISSION TO POST THIS AND I THINK HE'S STILL IN NU OPEN. WILL POST REPLAY BACK WHEN I GET PERMISSION LOL
 
Last edited:
A bunch of changes I went over in chat that I did like to see some reflection of in the vr:

Audino-Mega: A -> B+
By no means is this a bad pokemon but it just doesn't do as well as it did before Decidueye and Dhelmise, these in particular also advantage greatly of the fact it's a special defensive wall and can't really beat their main sets. CB Dhelmise just OHKO's both none and mega audino after sr, Decidueye can put up a Substitude or pivot without a real drawback thanks to U-turn. It's reliance on Toxic and inability to prevent being pivoted on or allowing in stuff it can't even touch such as Silvally-Steel and Golbat. I find this especially concerning for a the mega evolved form as that one suffers even more heavily from strong special attackers now they can get in more easily, the main threats including Vanilluxe, Heliolisk and Vikavolt all of which force it to wish protect every other turn and more often can even change up moves or pivot around. To add to this Vanilluxe also has seen some set changes over the time each of which abuse audino's inability to hurt it to various degree's; taunt toxic but the always pressent specs still threatens to beat it. Even scarf can opt for toxic to limit on some of it's momentum or limit on it's capasity to wall if it's lacking heal bell.

Type: Null: B+ -> B-
I think it was Starblim that used the Iron Defense set a bit not too long ago. Showcasing a Pursuit trapper + it's main set. Now before the new drops and back to sand meta this pokemon did a good amount of work with the special defensive pivot set, I honestly don't see it be any better ever since as that set is just lacking in raw force and tends to be pivoted on itself or worn about as quickly as Mega Audino. Now i do think it still holds value in this metagame, it just requires more specific support to work. With Passimian around every corner, bulky defensive walls on every team and ghost types in abundance it's pretty clear you need more then just 1 pokemon to resolve it's flaws and after that you have a wincon that is fairly likely to put in work. I don't see this be different from any of the other pokemon in B- besides Quagsire and Probopass as they have a compleatly different objective.

Quagsire /
Pyukumuku: B and B- -> C+ both
Stall is not in a good spot and I feel this should be reflected up on in the vr. With Dhelmise and Decidueye both common and capable of dismanteling stall in various ways teams are forced to resort to other pokemon to fix up the current weaknesses. This is at cost of losing out on what it previously tried to wall. People are trying out teams that either auto lose to Vanilluxe, Heliolisk, BU Scrafty/LO Medi/Guts Yama or allow for openings to pivot around with even more simple wallbreakers such as Guzzlord.

Ferroseed: B+ -> B-
I don't know why it's still here but it sure doesn't like the fact we are out of sand meta. I have very little reason to believe it should be this high up when so many pokemon abuse it's inability to stand in this metagame but I will cut it some slack in saying Xatu's usage is a tad more down then it was a little time ago and it likes the limited number of high usage Fight types as that one can be scouted on with Protect. Now what I don't like is having a Decidueye set up an SD, Dhelmise using Knock Off to remove your evio or and be in range for the next CB attack to KO your or any special attack after to finish you off. And this is not limited or unique to Dhelmise. I could go on about rising threats in BU Braviary and more silvally-steel but for what has dropped in usage, example BU Scrafty, I don't think it's all that fair to say it got worse from specifically those 2 trends.

Silvally-Steel: B mid -> B+
Many people including myself are splashing this pokemon on most of their teams for how well it fits on the majority of balance oriented teams and provides the essential role of a hazard remover DESPITE all the very clear flaws it has. The ability to take on Vanilluxe, Diancie, Vivillon, Whimsicott, Comfey and still provide some blank walling utility to 1v1 answere Klinklang and stupidly said, anything it could resist, is very usefull. Want to play it agressively, switch it in on a Dhelmise Power Whip, even with the risk of EQ to OHKO if it's CB Dhelmise(which it should be). Risks more often worth taking when it already did it's job to remove will outlast any rocker not name Torterra, making the opportunity to defog as the only remaining downside. And this last bit can become an issue, especially with the rise of Braviary and how Silvally-Steel can't 1v1 Braviary with any move besides potentially toxic it, rendering it unable to 6-0 you or change up Parting Shot for U-turn™ so you atleast can 1v1 it with something else. Having a Rhydon or Roar Steelix does resolve the issue all together but chances are the rocks are still up on your side regardless of which of the solutions you pick.


These are just some of the subjects that were talked about on showdown and my personal thoughts writen down on them, I am possitive there are more pokemon people can bring up with valid points to showcase how dynamic current metagame is.
 
Last edited:

Rabia

is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
GP & NU Leader
B -> B+ agreed
So I briefly mentioned my support for a rise to B+ earlier, and I'd like to expand on that. Silvally-Steel has been a balanced staple for quite some time now, as it is easily a top 2 Defogger in the tier. I would argue Silvally-Steel completes many balanced builds, providing a consistent check to special wallbreakers like Diancie, Vanilluxe, and Whimsicott. There really aren't many drawbacks to this Pokemon either: it provides immense support through the combination of Defog and pivot moves; it isn't super passive thanks to its access to Flamethrower; the only real knock on it I feel is somewhat justified is its lack of reliable recovery which can easily be fixed by pairing it with Vaporeon, a very common partner (and if you're running Slowbro alongside Silvally-Steel I totally feel that's a valid pairing too. I just prefer Vaporeon for the Wish support it provides). I understand this nomination has been rejected 3 slates in a row, but Silvally-Steel is truly underrated on the VR. Braviary's rise hurts it, but the way it functions as a really solid glue Pokemon on most balanced builds speaks to the influence it has on the archetype.

C+ -> B-
Haunter isn't a super impressive Pokemon, but it really gives bulkier builds and balanced builds trouble because of how many switches it forces. I've been using SubSplit, and it has been really effective at just giving teams trouble. Substitute lets you escape Pursuit trapping from the likes of Sneasel too, so that's a pretty major boon. I only have one replay, and I didn't play particularly impressively, but it showcases Haunter pretty well.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-785617565
 

Miltank to B+

Miltank was already an underused mon but the drops helped it even more. Sap Sipper walls scary offensive grasses like Dhelmise, non Low Sweep SD Decidueye and Whimsicott while Thick Fat remains one of the best Ice Cream counters in the tier as well as a solid SD Incineroar check. Miltank also provides great team support whether getting rocks up to toxicing or seismic tossing things down even whirlpool trapper sets are still solid. Xatu also hates the current meta which Miltank loves as one of its downsides was never getting rocks up vs Xatu. It also has its potential on stall being an ice or grass counter with reliable recovery and access to heal bell. In short Miltank benefits from the current meta and is a huge asset on a variety of teams ranging from balance to stall which I believe warrants a rise.

Also agree with a bunch of other stuff
Kingler to B-
Audino Mega to A-
Steelvally to B+
Aerodactyl to B
Clawitzer to C
Weezing to C
Golbat to B
Articuno to C
Sigilyph to B
Togedemaru to C
 
Last edited:

poh

<?>
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
B --> B+

Magmortar is the only good Fire-type that isn't affected by the popularity of Incineroar while also not minding the latest additions to the tier. What makes Magmortar really stand out is its sheer power and colorful coverage moves aswell as a decent speedtier, outspeeding key threats like Decidueye, Vanilluxe and Medicham. It can choose between Electrium Z to deal with with bulky Water-types and Fightinium Z to deal with Dark- and Rock-types and not needing to worry missing Focus Blast vs stuff like Incineroar and Rhydon. Access to Taunt gives it a good matchup against fatter teams. Everytime i use this mon it gets me atleast a kill per game and i recommend everyone using it.
 

quziel

I am the Scientist now
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
its a VR post, one that I'm too lazy to put pictures in.

Rhydon: A- => A
This thing is in an absurdly good position as of late, being one of the better Incin checks, being able to exert a frankly absurd amount of offensive pressure thanks to its 130 Attack, and beating the flavor of the month mon, Braviary with relative ease. That, and the fact that it laughs at Diancie pretty easily, barring like, specs Epower, all of which gives it a very solid place in the meta.

Decidueye: A+ => A
Turns out Incin is even more popular than it was before, and despite the fact that Z-Low Sweep can beat it, its not reliable in the least, this is combined with people spamming Sneasel, Braviary, and a bunch of other stuff that makes its life really annoying. As such, I'd like to drop it one sub-rank.

Agree with Dhelmise to A-/A, this mon is basically the scariest breaker in the tier if it manages to get a switchin, with its only real issue being the fact that protect is on 3 mons a team nowadays.

Agree with a Audino drop to A-/B+/B, not 100% sure exactly which rank I want it, but the mon has definitely fallen off, and just is too much free space for too much of the tier to set up on for free.

Agree with a Comfey rise to A-, this mon is like, really polarizing in its matchups, but if it gets a good one, its basically a free win, and even in a shite matchup, it can still HP Fire that Lix, or, if running specs, Trick that Golbat.

Raise Golbat to at least B-/B: Thing is fat as hell, and C+ is heavily underrating it, I don't necessarily love it as a Defogger, but it can still put in work there, what with being a defogger that beats Comfey while still resisting fighting, but I'd like to emphasize how strong Toxic Stallbreaker can be, and how that set has some essentially unlosable matchups, and can do really dumb stuff like Toxic a Diancie and then 1v1 it. That and the fact that Fast Bat is able to kill Medicham, Decid, and a bunch of other stuff with the wonder of Brave Bird, all of this while making Bu Braviary worthless.

Raise Froslass from C- => C/C+: Spikes are an amazing move, and Taunt to prevent defog in a meta where legit all the hazard removal is defog is really useful. Thing can run a million tech sets, and the threat of DBond is always in the opponent's mind, which gives this thing more room than it really should get. Not a nom I feel incredibly strongly about, but the thing is def better than C-.
 
Last edited:

Abejas

Yo where Ken at
is a Top Tiering Contributor
B+ -> Lower
I haven't seen Type:Null in a long while and that has a great reason. It's simply not good and the new drops made it even worse. It's passive, pressured out by a lot of the metagame and cant really check the special attackers in the tier since it's forced to Rest most of the times. And in a metagame where set up sweepers such as Incineroar, Decidueye and Braviary are prominent, giving these pokemon free turns is never good.

B+ -> A-
Scrafty is a huge threat in the metagame and is really slept on. The combination of it's bulk, great typing and decent offensive stats make it a great Set up sweeper. The best set at the moment is probably Chople+ DD and it's deadly to face if its played correctly. This pokemon also appreciates the new drops since it can beat both Decidueye (if it's not packing Z fighting) and Dhelmise.

C+ -> B even B+
I don't know why Golbat is so low on the rank, just like Quziel said earlier Taunt + Toxic is a great threat in this tier. Not only this, it also has a great speed tier that lets it outspeed mayor threats such as Medicham and Decidueye with not a lot of invesment (100+ is enough for Adamant cham and Jolly decidueye) while also having great bulk that lets it beat a huge part of the metagame such as Diancie (if its not specs), Passimian, Whimsicott and Comfey.
 
Last edited:
Miltank -> B+

It is one of the best if not the best answer to non Z Low Sweep Decidueye and Dhelmise. It is a really solid rocker as well and if you need a Sneasel/Vanilluxe Check you can use it as well with Thick Fat.

I also agree with the following nominations:
Dhelmise -> A-
Golbat -> B
Audino-Mega -> A-/B+
Comfey -> A-
Silvally Steel -> B+
Clawitzer -> C+
Articuno -> C
 

etern

is a Community Leaderis a Top Tiering Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a defending SCL Championis a Former Smogon Metagame Tournament Circuit Champion
NU Leader
I think we're way too lenient on what deserves to be ranked on the VR and it's lead to the lower end of the list being bloated with mons that flat out shouldn't be used or haven't been used in months. If we have higher standards from the bottom it gives us more room to spread out mons in the middle rankings and have a more accurate list overall. With that being said, I have a few noms to fix that.

C- > UR: Clefairy is a mediocre do-nothing mon that folds to every single top tier threat (CM Rest Slowbro, Specs Vanilluxe, Incineroar, Decidueye, Sneasel, Gunk Shot Passimian, Braviary, Klinklang, Heavy Slam Guzzlord, and the list goes on). It's a lousy wall, completely shut down by Xatu so even Stealth Rock isn't a viable set, and even on stall it struggles to justify a teamslot due to how little it can accomplish compared to other mons. Unrank this.

C- > UR: Altaria really hasn't been viable since the Emboar meta so this was unfortunately a long time coming. It struggles with how common Fairy-types like Comfey / Diancie and Ice-types like Sneasel / Vanilluxe are and it barely checks anything apart from Scarf Passimian, Scarf Delphox, and Palossand. It also hates the meta's shift towards Rhydon being arguably the best rocker in the tier, as well as stuff like BU Braviary, Sceptile, and LO Samurott becoming more and more prominent.

C- > D: Poor revenge killer, 0 defensive utility, average power, and walled by half the meta. There's 0 reason to use this Pokemon, send it to D.

C > UR: This thing has awful matchups versus almost every Pokemon from S to A- apart from a few fighting-types. Everything it does can basically be done better by superior Grass-types like Vileplume, Decidueye, and Dhelmise.

C+ > C-: Should've been nuked a long time ago. Uxie is an awful rocker that loses to basically every hazard remover in the tier and achieves very little in games because of how ridiculously passive it is. Stopped cold by Xatu, lets things like Guzzlord, Specs Diancie, Incineroar, and Mismagius in for free. The only thing keeping this out of D for me is the fact that it can check Medicham while providing SR, U-turn pivoting and Knock Off support in one slot, but that niche isn't worth more than C- at best.

C+ > C / C-: Nobody ever uses this because it's almost never worth using over Slowbro or Vaporeon. It wants to run Scald and Hex but doesn't have the space for it, also relies on Colbur heavily. It struggles hard versus stuff like Guzzlord, Sneasel, and the army of Grass-types dominating the meta and gets outperformed as a spinblocker by mons like Rotom, Decidueye, and Dhelmise for the most part. Mediocre and generally outclassed in a meta that isn't kind to it.

C+ > C- / UR: The only thing this does nowadays is softcheck Dhelmise and even that's a stretch since CB Heavy Slam is a 2HKO with rocks up. It's a fat Grass-type that can't check the best Grasses in the tier, gets crippled by Knock Off and has a poor matchup versus all the top tier threats in the meta. Not a necessary mon to keep ranked now that Sand is gone.

C+ > C: Struggles to get setup opportunities, Rotom and Scarf Passimian are extremely common and faster Ghost-types like Mismagius are seeing more usage as of late. Not a terrible mon, but needs a ton of support to work out, C+ is overselling it a tad atm.

That's all for now, agree with most of the nominations on the last page, particularly Decidueye down to A and Dhelmise up to A. Looking forward to seeing Silvally-Steel rejected for a fourth time in a row.
 
C- > D: Poor revenge killer, 0 defensive utility, average power, and walled by half the meta. There's 0 reason to use this Pokemon, send it to D.


That's all for now, agree with most of the nominations on the last page, particularly Decidueye down to A and Dhelmise up to A. Looking forward to seeing Silvally-Steel rejected for a fourth time in a row.
I disagree with these two
Ambipom is not that bad at all, he should be a bit higher imo
While i absolutely agree on decidueye i don't think dhelmise is as good as him, so definitely not A worthy, A- at best
Also alongside Steelvally we're also waiting on golbat, C+ is even more ridiculous than Steelvally's B, i think B/B+ is where Golbat belongs rn
 

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
Ambipom is not that bad at all, he should be a bit higher imo
You could actually provide some actual reasoning as to why you think Ambi is even halfway viable, much less deserving of a rise.

Ambipom's Fake Out is a 'jack of all trades, master of none' priority move, which is frankly terrible since you OHKO nothing with this and you're basically forced to sac another mon just to use it again against a boosted threat. This is pretty much the worst way to revenge kill a mon, especially when you have better priority such as Ice Shard, Sucker Punch/Shadow Sneak, Aqua Jet, and Mach Punch, or a decent selection of Choice Scarfers in the tier. Even against +2 setup sweepers Ambi doesn't hold a niche, since Klinklang and Rhydon just laugh at you and weather sweepers are already shut down by Vanilluxe. Shit, even Medicham proves to be a better Fake Out user by the end of the day, since it can at least follow up with Bullet Punch to rack up the damage, and even these two moves aren't very viable on Cham.

Ambipom also has barely any worth as a corebreaker. It's already eclipsed by Sneasel for the most part, but even on its own merit, Ambipom just gets bodied too hard by so many bulky mons, such as Rhydon, Slowbro, Diancie, Palossand, etc., even Piloswine can just switch in on any move (even Knock Off) and still win since Ambi can't take a hit worth a damn and doesn't do enough damage to justify its atrocious bulk and especially zero defensive utility. I mean, you could consider Skill Link Tail Slap for just a bit more raw power, but not only is that still not winning you much matchups against bulky things, but you also give up Technician Fake Out, which is the whole point of even using this awful mon.

Speaking of Skill Link Tail Slap:


It's starting to come to my attention that Cinccino doesn't actually need STAB to function. While it seems like an asinine idea to forgo raw power on a mon which seems to badly need it (especially as an offensive Normal-type), I find that Bullet Seed and Rock Blast just seem to do the majority of heavy lifting for Cinccino in this meta already, while Tail Slap doesn't actually help that much; if anything, Tail Slap being the least accurate of its multi-hit moves as well as making contact only seems to serve as liabilities imo. Bullet Seed and Rock Blast are pretty damn great for most of the bulky mons in this meta, smacking things like Rhydon, Diancie, Incineroar, Golbat, Slowbro, Vaporeon, even Pyukumuku, etc., and kills plenty of offensive mons as well.

If Cinccino forgoes Tail Slap and sports a moveset of Bullet Seed, Rock Blast, Knock Off, and U-turn, its matchups barely change at all, or more specifically, Tail Slap doesn't really better most of Cinccino's matchups. You do miss out on some raw power against things like Fighting- and Normal-types, but consider this:
- Mega Audino doesn't care about your extra damage anyway, while the likes of Trick Room Aromatisse, phys def Hariyama, and Scrafty can still tank the hit and retaliate hard.
- Some of these mons are faster, like Sceptile, Whimsicott, and Scarf Passimian, so Tail Slap isn't hitting those outside of on the switch, and even then they don't like switching into an unresisted 125 BP move, even if unSTABed.
- Some of the frailer mons, like Heliolisk, Medicham, and Hitmonlee, risk getting blasted by LO/Choice Band Bullet Seed as is, give or take SR damage depending on the item.
- Some of the non-resists, like Garbodor, Druddigon, and Vileplume, can punish Tail Slap for making contact.
- U-turn can punish super exploitable mons like Comfey and Miltank, or do a chunk to things like Guzzlord (as well as OHKOing Malamar :/)

-----------------------------------------------

Tl;dr: Bullet Seed and Rock Blast are so good for general damage on the tier that Cinccino doesn't even need Tail Slap, with Knock Off and U-turn being sufficient counter-responses against most things that can take the Grass + Rock coverage or Tail Slap just being outright bad. Oh and Ambipom sux don't use it.
 
Last edited:

Ren-chon

Lifesbane, 36 layers. How does it look?
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Past SCL Champion
Couldnt go to my real life university today, so why not spend my time at smogon university instead of doing something productive :GWczoLoliShrug:

A > B+
This thing is just... Not really good right now. In past metas it was actually kinda splashable in balance and stall alike, but nowadays it can only really fit in more defensive builds since it gives WAY too many free turns to things, and you dont want to give way too many free turns to things, trust me. With the increase in usage of Incineroar, SubBU Brav, Scrafty, and even things it could at least try to check before like ice cream resorting to sets with toxic and/or taunt, its hard to justify it being so highly ranked (and the fact it has to run toxic>heal bell actually makes it not as hard to wear down as before). Also, the fact you dont want to mega evo in 99% of the cases pretty much takes MAudino out of the equation, making things even worse for the poor pink dog. Its sole role in a team is tanking random hits while not really doing much back. In this sense, Audino is kinda like the Toxapek of NU, except that it sucks.

C+ > C-
Agreeing with Eternally here. Jellicent was actually fairly good back in the frog meta as it was the only water-type that could reliably switch into it. Now that Toxicroak is gone, there isnt really a way to justify its use in a team. Much like Audino, none of the things that are becoming (or already were) meta rn are good news for the sea jelly dog. From grasses running rampant to the rise in usage of physical things that dont care much about WoW (Scrafty, sub Brav, Incineroar), theres not a reason to use this over Slowbro, toise or Vapo, the only other defensive water-types in the tier as Slowking is an unmon.

/
B- / B > C+ / B-
I agree that stall has seen better days and it should be reflected in the trademark and obligatory Unaware mon of choice, but a drop to C+, at least in pyukus case, is harsh. Quagsire will pretty much always be worse than the sea cucumber dog due to the fact of having to choose between beating Brav with Waterfall or having a "supportive" option in Scald, while being unable to use Toxic whatsoever, and also not having a chance at beating Decidueye at all. Pyuku on the other hand can handle everything Quagsire does with the use of Spite and Toxic while having double his SDef, which is vital when you need to tank random special hits, so that alone already means it should be ranked higher than its counterpart. To add on this, while Pyukumuku does indeed lose to Dhelmise and doesnt have a good matchup against Decidueye (it can actually win the 1v1 if its been Toxic'd before and assuming it doesnt crit, but yah...), we cant forget it still beat things it used to (Klink, Incineroar, CM Bro, Tauntless Comfey) while also winning against the two set up sweepers that have been gaining traction as of lately (Brav and Scrafty). All in all, I believe B- is where it should be.

B > B+
Gotta agree with this one as well. The tier has, surprisingly, been getting slower as of lately. Most teams more often than not only have, counting the scarfer, 2, sometimes even just 1 Pokémon that can break the 80 speed tier. Added to the fact it can beat most of the often used fire-type checks in the tier, Magmortar is without a doubt one scary lava dog. But I think the thing that makes it even worse to deal with is the fact it has quite a degree of freedom regarding its 4th moveslot. Taunt and Substitute help it dealing with fat, slow teams (aka 90% of the current ones) while Iron Tail is an option to handle Diancie better. With an amazing coverage and the option to pick what would-be counters it can beat using the last move, maggy is deserving of a rise.

C > C+
Last but not least, Skuntank. It was nominated by jrsmash first but I feel like it didnt get the attention it deserves. Having been spamming skunky stall as of lately, its crazy how good this thing is. It helps a lot the Decidueye matchup (and Dhelmise somewhat), gives stall a tool to play around CM Grassium Delphox better, checks Sceptile (which can be hella annoying if SR is up since then Articuno might find some trouble switching in), absorbs Toxic Spikes (again, another annoying thing as there arent many grounded poison-types that can fit in stall), beats non-HP Ground Comfey, and so on. Usually, Skuntanks main drawbacks are 1) the fact it doesnt hit hard enough; 2) isnt necessarily that fast compared to other options; 3) has trouble finding a 4th move as there are many it wants to use; and 4) receives competition for a team slot with Sneasel, Incineroar and Absol. In stall, point 1 isnt a problem since it only needs to hit hard enough to take down Decidueye and Comfey; 2 doesnt matter since, again, it only needs to outspeed the ghost bird dog; 3 is mitigated by stall already offering the support it needs between Defog and Xatu to play around Steelix; and 4 is a non-factor since it synergizes with defensive teams way better than Sneasel and Absol, while Incineroar finds trouble fitting itself in stall builds. The skunk dog is, in my opinion, one of the 3 things keeping stall decent/average right now (the other two being ProTox Xatu and a deep hatred for humanity).
 

Yoshi

IT'S FINK DUMBASS
-> A+
It may be slightly premature to ask for this, but there's no doubt that Heliolisk is one of the best Pokemon in the meta right now. When paired with Passimian, it creates an incredibly effective VoltTurn core, and since not many people are running Steelix and Rhydon right now (from what I've seen), it makes it really easy for Heliolisk for click Volt Switch a million times. The only thing Heliolisk really hates right now is Sneasel, mainly because it creates a 50/50. People will argue that Decidueye and Dhelmise made it worse, but you have the opportunity to run Dark Pulse over Surf, and even if you don't want to do that, you can still Volt Switch out on those and go into something that beats them. All in all, Heliolisk is extremely meta right now, and it's very easy to pivot around with it, meaning it should rise to A+.

-> B-/C+
What has this Pokemon done since 2017? Pretty much nothing, as it's viability as a support tank of sorts just isn't needed anymore. The Scarf set had prominence for awhile, but that's bad now too, especially when we have a much more common and usable Choice Scarfer in Passimian. While it does check Diancie, there are plenty of other Pokemon that do that now too, and it can't even counter 100% of the time because of Earth Power. It's also out classed as an Electric-type due to the prominence of Heliolisk right now. There's just so much preventing Togedemaru from being good, and it's really hard to fit onto teams right now. Therefore, drop Togedemaru to B- / C+.

-> B-
I've been playing around with Accelgor a lot lately, and one thing I've noticed is that not many people have a Bug Buzz switch in, outside of Diancie. If you can weaken Diancie you can pretty much just spam moves with this for the entire game, whether it be Bug Buzz or Focus Blast. It also has Spikes, which I think both that and Toxic Spikes are super underrated right now, since they're so easy to set up with the lack of usage of Xatu. It also has access to U-Turn, which sounds obvious, but keeping momentum in this meta is extremely important, and if you're able to do that you probably should, which is another thing that makes Accelgor better than it has been.

Other noms I agree with:
-> B+
-> C-
-> D
-> Lower
-> A-
-> B
-> C+
-> A
 
Last edited:
I think Decideye is good at being ranked at A+ but, I could honestly see it being ranked at A as well due to 4mss, and having a tough time with a few top relevant threats. It does have something for almost everything yet, it can't pull it all off. You sort of have to build the team around it sometimes. If you're using it as a sweeper then, you have to keep in mind that it's not going to sweep all playstyles, only certain ones due it's low speed. It relies heavily on low sweep, sucker punch, and the right z-move which can get annoying to decide on. All in all, it's still a threat that can punch holes rather easily due to it's high power plus, great STABs.

I agree with Kay on Pinsir rising to C+. I've used it and it's a good hole puncher. It has problems with faster threats but, it can tackle top threats like Incineroar and Slowbro. It does sit on a pretty good speed tier as stated before, though it still tanks some hits from faster threats like Sceptile and can KO back without an SD a lot of the time. But a neat thing to note is Mespirit is a decent partner with Pinsir. It doesn't help deal with faster threats but, it can bring it back with healing wish. Pinsir has a big hazard weakness and will take many hits from priority users that are slow, fast threats, and walls that carry toxic. Overall, it's a great wallbreaker that can score at least one KO most games.
Aside from all the positives plus, obvious negatives of using Pinsir, I'll go more depth in the other problems of using it. Lack of immediate power against bulky threats. Sure, STAB X-Scissor can do a lot of damage to Slowbro but, it's not an outright OHKO, or even a KO after hazards. Allowing the opponent to go for a scald burn then dip out to recover off of regenerator. It's STAB also doesn't come in handy too much against some common threats, forcing it to rely on coverage moves. Although this may seem like not too big of a problem, but it actually is because sometimes it's forced to go for it's z-move against threats like Incineroar. Meaning, no SD set-up which is needed to have enough power for so many of the fat threats in this tier. So, it works best mid-late game. But, other fast threats can work best around that time too, stopping the hole punching short depending on the fast threat.
All of which are reasons why I agree with it rising but, not going higher than C+.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top